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View Full Version : What Exactly Contistutes "Spawn Raping"?



AlexanderYork
29th Dec 2006, 10:21 PM
OK, recently I got a couple of messages from people complaining about spawn raping so I thought I would post a topic here in order to discuss it, express our opinions and hopefully get the authoritative word from our tireless admins about what does and does not constitute spawn raping.

Let me begin by saying I will always do my best to follow our rules and encourage others to do the same. That being said, in order to follow the rules, we need to know exactly what they are which, I suppose, is the purpose of this post.

IMO, spawn raping has typically consisted of hanging out in the enemy uncappable base and laying in ambush waiting for enemies to spawn so that you can get easy kills on them as they spawn. This typically (but not exclusively) consists of using a sniper rifle from a concealed position or other typical cover or sneaking up on the enemy commander and shoving a knife into his belly (if the commander is smart, he'll stay on the Titan behind his shield). This is something I would wholeheartedly agree is cheap and something to be discouraged (read: prohibited).

What I have heard is that we prohibit spawn raping and we are only supposed to enter the enemies uncappable bases for purposes of destroying "assets". In conquest mode this is very simple since the only assets present are the static points which provide for UAV, EMP, Satellite and Orbital Bombardment support.

In Titan Mode however, the Titan Turrets are effectively a tactical replacement for the Orbital Bombardment available in Conquest Mode which is, I suppose, why there is no Orbital Bombardment available to Titan commanders. I realize we also prohibit moving the Titans (a shame since they would otherwise provide an additional and interesting tactical component to the game) since the lag this introduces is such a problem. Still, in a number of the titan maps the guns (especially the forward guns) of an unmoved Titan are still within range or nearly in range of a cappable silo and therefore can be useful to the enemy for providing supressing fire. Needless to say anything useful to the enemy is bad for our side.

Things get more complicated after the enemy Titan Shields are dropped since boarding the enemy Titan quickly and in force becomes critical to destroying the titan quickly. Depending on the competency, effectiveness and number of enemy gunners this can be best done with air transport vehicles or with APCs. Usually, it is best to pursue both methods as vigorously as possible. Once the enemy titan shields are down it becomes critical to maintain a ground presence in the vicinity of the enemy titan in order to protect our APCs, supress the Titan Turrets and control the AA gun that is usually present and would otherwise be used to shoot down our transport choppers as they attempt to board the enemy Titan. Again, since we do not move the Titans, this usually means being in an enemy uncappable spawn point.

This bring up a number of questions that I think we should make an effort to answer in order to be clear about what the rules are regarding enemy uncappable spawn points.

1. Are we going to consider enemy Titan Turrets to be legitemate targets? If so, shouldn't we be allowed to destroy them in any way we can? Obviously, IMO we should allow use of the nearest AA gun for this pourpose as well as the other available methods (handheld AT guns, Attack Choppers, Tanks, etc.)

2. If you are in an AA gun trying to destroy the Titan Turrets, it makes sense to try to protect yourself while you are there. Placing AT & AP mines in the area for this purpose should be considered legitemate self-defense. For that matter what about having a squaddie (or two, or three) watching your back while you are bringing the Titan Turrets down? Again feel free to express your opinions on this either for or against.

3. After or shortly before the enemy Titan Shields are dropped does it not make sense to attempt to have APCs in the area (either your own or captured enemy APCs) in order to allow your team to quickly board the enemy Titan in force?

4. Once the Titan Shields are down, should it not be considered legitemate to have as many APCs in the area as possible to facilitate a continued push on the enemy Titan? If so, protecting these APCs from enemy ground fire as well as the Titan Turrets is critical. As is keeping them repaired and supressing the enemy's ability to destroy them. No doubt the enemy will be trying as hard as possible to capture or destroy your APCs so you'd better be trying to protect and/or recapture them or they won't last very long.

5. When defending your Titan it can be very effective to fly your attack chopper around the back of your Titan and rake the decks with rocket and gatling fire to make it as difficult as possible for the enemy to board and to destroy any transport choppers that have landed or are trying to land. Also, to prevent this the enemy may try to board the titan at the topmost deck first so that they can use AT mines to suppress the choppers as they take off. This is also, another good reason for there to be a battle over control of the ever-present ground-based AA turret in order to supress the enemy attack chopper's ability to defend their Titan. Also, a team that does not defend the top of their own Titan during an assault is giving up a huge tactical advantage to the enemy by allowing them to mine their launch bay and giving them easier access to the outside of their Titan.

6. Is it legitemate to enter an enemy uncappable base for puposes of stealing their vehicles? I have seen this happen many times and while it is annoying as heck it seems to me that it could be considered a legitemate tactic.

Obviously, there are a lot of reasons besides simply getting cheap kills for being in an enemy's uncappable base. We ultimately need to decide if any or all of them are legitimate or not and what exactly we mean when we say "no spawn raping".

I look forward to reading your opinions...

-AlexanderYork

P.S. I decided to post a poll on this topic, feel free to respond

Premonition
29th Dec 2006, 10:42 PM
The thing is you have to be fair. Just like the titan rule. If you allow partial movement then you might as well allow all movement. Its a either all or nothing thing.
Just like in bf2 there is a fine line between what is and what isnt against the rules. But if we dont have the rules then no one will comply. If we do have the rules we will always have grey areas that people think should not be included in the rules.

But no one admits freely (usually to breaking the rules).
ex.
if we say the titans can only move to the closest strategic silo.
People will play bumper cars with the titans and swear they are going to the closest silo. So we cant enforce the rules because we dont know if they are indeed telling the truth. So it would be unfair to take actions based on not knowing for sure.

same ex. with no moving the titan.
You can see now if a admin sees a titan moving then we have exact situation thats against the rules. No grey area.

But all rules have that grey area, and the rules extend into the grey area because if it didnt them it would be pointless to try and enforce. Because everyone would claim thats what they where doing.

I hope that makes sence :)
But if enough people thing that rule needs tweaked, cain will consider whats best for the servers and the players on them. Then he will tell us exactly what to look for and what to take action for.


2142 does a lot of things different than bf2 (like spawning inside the transport) but a big complaint we have seen is people getting caught in bottle necks where 1 team cant get going. Much like usa team in bf2.
If we did away with that rule then it would be even worse for that team since the other team would just move into the last base and spawn kill them for 20 mins. (conquest of course :) )

Rand{CLR}
29th Dec 2006, 10:49 PM
Here's what I am willing to do, personally speaking (and by extension, if this is done to our side I consider it ok):

1. Blow up enemy titan guns with ground AA/Pilums
2. Steal enemy vehicles
3. Kill enemy commander ONCE. And to be honest, any commander in Titan mode who isn't in the safe room deserves to be stabbed. :twisted:
4. Booby-trap enemy vehicles while attempting to do (1) above--motion mines on tanks that have to move to shoot me while I'm taking out guns for example.
5. Blow up enemy commander assets
6. Position for imminent attack on titan...and by that, I mean 1 or 2 (at most) missile hits away from shields dropping.

If there are people around, I try not to be seen. If I am seen and I haven't accomplished one of the above, I'll engage. Otherwise I leave all spawners alone.

Things that are not cool include:

1. Camping with stolen vehicles in spawn. Shooting your way out is ok. Hiding in a corner and shooting spawners--no way.
2. Camping spawners with APM mines, sniper guns, hand-held weapons, aa turrets, railguns, etc.
3. Running in and out just to kill people (so one can say they aren't technically spawn camping).
4. Hovering with gunships or transports and plunking targets at uncaps.
5. Shelling uncaps from distance with tanks, walkers, and APC mortars.

-Rand

goldenfooler
29th Dec 2006, 10:50 PM
I think on titan there is much much less a worry about spawn raping, as you can always spawn safely in a titan and getout easily by podding.
my 2 cents
Jet watching a kill zone.... no prob
Destroying the guns.... no prob
Mines.... no prob(don't think there every was one )
Destorying assets ... more people should be smart enough to do it
Stealing(not mentioned) an apc/tank... go for it
Killing whats in your way, but not going out of your way for a kill.... sure
Killing to get out ... go for it.
Having your squad sit there while you spam at titan turretns for 10 mins.. no good , you more important things to do.
Sitting there in an apc just to kill anyone who spawns while shields are down... i can see an ok.. but really you should be attacking the titan and they can pod down and kill you.
Sitting for any length of time (other then just in an aa gun to get titan guns) around the uncaps .....no way bad carma

But thats just my 2 cents

what your real thought should be... would i be pissed if someone did this to me, would this ruin the game, if your even thinking about it for a second its a BIG NO.

FreeLance_FoX
29th Dec 2006, 11:35 PM
Here's what I am willing to do, personally speaking (and by extension, if this is done to our side I consider it ok):

1. Blow up enemy titan guns with ground AA/Pilums
2. Steal enemy vehicles
3. Kill enemy commander ONCE. And to be honest, any commander in Titan mode who isn't in the safe room deserves to be stabbed. :twisted:
4. Booby-trap enemy vehicles while attempting to do (1) above--motion mines on tanks that have to move to shoot me while I'm taking out guns for example.
5. Blow up enemy commander assets
6. Position for imminent attack on titan...and by that, I mean 1 or 2 (at most) missile hits away from shields dropping.

If there are people around, I try not to be seen. If I am seen and I haven't accomplished one of the above, I'll engage. Otherwise I leave all spawners alone.

Things that are not cool include:

1. Camping with stolen vehicles in spawn. Shooting your way out is ok. Hiding in a corner and shooting spawners--no way.
2. Camping spawners with APM mines, sniper guns, hand-held weapons, aa turrets, railguns, etc.
3. Running in and out just to kill people (so one can say they aren't technically spawn camping).
4. Hovering with gunships or transports and plunking targets at uncaps.
5. Shelling uncaps from distance with tanks, walkers, and APC mortars.

-Rand

That post pretty much reflects my thoughts 100%. Nice job Rand.

Duke{CLR}
29th Dec 2006, 11:59 PM
What about placing a sentry gun in a spawn point at an uncap base?

jinxx
30th Dec 2006, 12:12 AM
Destroying UAV,EMP,Satellite & Titan Guns

All of the above as well as stealing enemy vehicles adn protecting your own but only after the enemy shields are dropped

All of the above plus positioning an attack force (and destroying the defenses) shortly before the enemy shield is dropped

All great reason IMO! :2thumbs:

goldenfooler
30th Dec 2006, 12:27 AM
What about placing a sentry gun in a spawn point at an uncap base?
I would say thats a no, but not that bad i have placed apms to defend myself when in the antiair guns(you know people like to just knife you there).

If you put it just defending yourself and not at a known or specific spawn point i think thats legal.

=IR=genEricSVG
30th Dec 2006, 01:02 AM
I think that most people know when they're raping , and know what's wrong . I always took them asking numerous questions on our old server to mean they were looking for a loophole :D
We had an awesome bf1942 server going for a long while , and i've adminned (is that even a word lol???) a LOT of servers , and imho the simpler you can keep the rules ( ie; less room for people's own interpretations) the better . Too bad "play nicely" doesn't mean to everyone else what it means to people here :roll:

AlexanderYork
30th Dec 2006, 02:15 AM
I agree completely with GenEric's thought that the simpler we can keep the rules, the better.

Also, I agree with Rand's thoughts about what shoulud and shouldn't be allowed. Stealing enemy vehicles, while it really bugs me should probably also be considered a legitemate tactic. IOW I wouldn't mind a rule against stealing enemy uncap spawn vehicles but on the other hand how else are you supposed to get out of their base once you are there.

However, once you are trying to actually mount an attack on the enemy Titan, I think all rules regarding this for the most part have to go out the window. After all, securing the ground beneath the Titan is CRITICAL to maintaining a successful attack and since we don't move the Titans, this means fighting in and around the enemy's (or your own) uncappable base.

In the end I think we'd all be a LOT happier if EA finally got off their collective rear ends and fixed the problem with lag when the Titans get close to one another, especially after the shields have dropped. Then we could go back to moving the Titans as much as we please.

-Alexander

thedeadlyassassin
30th Dec 2006, 03:08 AM
Oh god are we not allowed to capture that base? I only assault it if there is an APC there that we can use to launch onto the enemy titan. I of course never spawn kill.

AlexanderYork
2nd Jan 2007, 08:39 PM
Just posting this reply to bump this thread to the top of the list. Ordinarily I would NEVER post just to bump a thread but there was another thread started on this same topic with some very relevant opinions.

Check it out here:

http://dark4se.com/cainslairforums/viewtopic.php?t=15050

-A