What is the world coming to?

[Hammy]

Gateway drugs are a sign of the weak minded.
If marijuana makes you try other drugs and you end up getting addicted, I find you to be an idiot. You shouldnt say marijuana caused it all, they were probably going to get into harder stuff with or without it.
I dont think the term "gateway drug" should even exist. If a person was going to try drugs, they would have done it anyways. Just because they used marijuana first doesnt mean that caused them to take other drugs. If in their mind they were willing to try other, harder drugs, they would have done so.
And I think most people take a drink of alcohol before smoking weed.

Gateway drugs = first stage drugs and includes everything you just said.

Some examples : Model glue, white-out (correction ink), rubber cement, alcohol.

I wont debate you on the drug seeking behavior is drug seeking behavior, but I just choose not to buy into this "let's give in" attitude.

In reference to another point around "Criminalizing something that a large percentage of the population uses ", I will disagree. What number is that?

In your world, you interact with people that sympathize or take part in that kind of thing. In my world, few people do it. And you don't know me that well, so you don't realize that people actually share things with me despite who I am- so I already know everyone around me that uses cocaine, smokes pot, and etc. In a nutshell, in my world, few use these drugs.

The long-view assumption that everyone is on something doesnt work for me because its what we term a "broad-set justification" statement- covers a lot of ground on a very coarse based assumption. It also is handy and readily available anytime the arguement takes a line that may be contrary to a belief.

As I said- anyone can come out here to California, and I'll take you on a legitimate tour of what your "innocuous" marijuana does to people.

[-IRC-MIKE]

Would you rather your child buy pot in a dark alley from someone that may introduce them to harder drugs in order to make more money off of them (or arbitrarily murder them for what's in their wallet), or pick some up at the Circle K when he fills up his car?

Ask yourself the same questions... Do you have kids? If I have to worry about where my kids are buying their pot then ...again.. I have failed as a parent. I hope I never have to worry about them being in a dark alley OR IN A CIRCLE K purchasing any kind of drugs.

+1 to AngryHamster.

Sure there are high ranking people who use drugs, but does that make it okay? They just haven't been caught yet...and I put emphasis on the word "YET". You know they aren't going to receive praise if/when they are busted.

It all comes down to what's right and what's wrong. I'm not perfect by any means, but I draw the line there. I guess if you were ever in a position like I am and have been all my life where other people's lives depend on your competency and clear thinking ability... well... I don't think I need to go on.

[GeneralSnake]

So you guys think it is bad just because it is illegal?
And who are you guys to decide right and wrong? What is right and wrong anyways? You mean correct and incorrect? Why are people so obsessed with these man-made laws and ideas? Do you think the entire universe follows our species notions of right and wrong? Was right and wrong here before our species? We dont know, but I HIGHLY doubt it. There are NO set rules in this universe, just those that beings create for their own purposes.
To me, it seems like you guys are saying anyone who smokes is a bad person and their life is going to be ruined. That offends me greatly. My father has smoked for as long as I can remember, he isnt some low life, he isnt in prison, he hasnt killed or raped anyone, he is a very nice and rational person.
And Hamster, I will agree, I dont know you well, but you know me? You are saying things like you know me. People in my world sympathize and use? I DONT THINK SO. Please dont say things like that.
If my uncle caught me smoking, I would be living on the streets. It isnt like I can sit around all day and smoke pot.
And, have you ever though that those people that screwed up their lives with drugs and it all started with pot, are just blaming a substance instead of their own weaknesses and stupidity? Because that is what it really is. Blame needs to be put somewhere, so they blame marijuana instead of their own faults.
And what worlds are you talking about? I dont live in my own world. If someone does live in their own world, they are probably insane.

[-IRC-MIKE]

I never said it was bad because it illegal. It is bad because it hinders your ability to react or make decisions that could possibly endanger others around you. It is the attitude that you carry in your thought process that suggests that it is okay for you to do drugs, so why not make it okay for everyone.

I am my kids' father. Thats who the hell I am, so I have all authority to decide what is right and what is wrong. I will excersize it freely. It is what I was taught to be the difference in right and wrong and that is what makes me who I am today. It makes me a better father, it makes me a better husband, and had I chose to use drugs or smoke pot, there is a really damn good chance that I could lose my wife and my kids due to selfish desire to smoke. (Yes .. when/if you are ever a father, and the cops catch you smoking weed around your kids...guess what einstein.. Foster Care..) Just because I'm against drug use doesn't make ME a bad person. It doesn't make me like or dislike you for choosing to do it. But to clarify my point, Vito may or may not smoke weed but even if he does, I'd bet you my next paycheck that he doesn't want his kids doing it (See the pattern?) and he might agree that it is not socially acceptable for kids to be able to come here and read where adults are trying to justify reasons why drugs should be allowed.

Just like the kids who will read this thread will also see that there are some people here who do condone the use of illegal drugs, so if just one of them leaves this thread with the mentality that "it is okay for General Snake to do it then it must be okay for me" then We've failed to do exactly what CLR stands for IMO.

Your uncle sounds like a respectable guy. There is a reason he doesn't want you smoking. Not only because it is illegal, but because it is wrong, it is pointless, it is a waste of money, and it can put a blemish on your record if you're caught that will NEVER go away. Such a record will limit you for the rest of your life. EVEN IF they legalize the use of Marijuana, employers will not change their policies and you'll still be limited to how you provide for your family.

[GeneralSnake]

We said nothing about other drugs, we are talking about marijuana only.
I see your point as a father, that you do not want your kids to smoke for various reasons, you are entitled to raise your kids how ever you want.
And, you have authority to decide what is right and wrong for your kids, until they are 18. You have no authority over anyone else. Unless you happen to be a law enforcement officer or something like that.
And earlier in the thread, almost all of us said that it ISNT for everyone, people like todd who have other peoples well being in their hands every day should not smoke, it does slow your reaction time and thought process.
And MIKE, I was mainly geared at hammy in that last post, it kind of pissed me off. Really pissed me off to be honest, but we are civilized, intelligent people here so lets try and keep the flaming down.

It is not for everyone, but for a lot of people, it would not do any harm it if were legalized and they could smoke it. It would benefit this country IMO. The government would make lots of money on taxing it, they would save lots of money by not having to prosecute and jail harmless(not all of them are harmless, but many of them are) weed smokers.

[Hammy]

So you guys think it is bad just because it is illegal?
And who are you guys to decide right and wrong? What is right and wrong anyways? You mean correct and incorrect? Why are people so obsessed with these man-made laws and ideas? Do you think the entire universe follows our species notions of right and wrong? Was right and wrong here before our species? We dont know, but I HIGHLY doubt it. There are NO set rules in this universe, just those that beings create for their own purposes.
To me, it seems like you guys are saying anyone who smokes is a bad person and their life is going to be ruined. That offends me greatly. My father has smoked for as long as I can remember, he isnt some low life, he isnt in prison, he hasnt killed or raped anyone, he is a very nice and rational person.
And Hamster, I will agree, I dont know you well, but you know me? You are saying things like you know me. People in my world sympathize and use? I DONT THINK SO. Please dont say things like that.
If my uncle caught me smoking, I would be living on the streets. It isnt like I can sit around all day and smoke pot.
And, have you ever though that those people that screwed up their lives with drugs and it all started with pot, are just blaming a substance instead of their own weaknesses and stupidity? Because that is what it really is. Blame needs to be put somewhere, so they blame marijuana instead of their own faults.
And what worlds are you talking about? I dont live in my own world. If someone does live in their own world, they are probably insane.

My tax paying citizenship in the US allows me to foster, proliferate and vote on what I think is right or wrong in my community, my county, my state, and my country.

People in your world are whatever spectrum of acceptance exists in it that enables you (by turning a blind eye or accepting it) or participates in using it with you.

Actually your Point of View is your own world. People see themselves and their support group in a specific way, and often react in anger when they are shown anything different, say from another point of view.

Weakness and stupidity are completely different than ignorance. The weak and stupid are willful participants, and they are in a completely different place than the ignorant. The ignorant may believe that there is no risk, that there is no impact, and etc, only to find themselves in a position of ownership by the drug itself.

As for my response and how it relates to you as a whole, I only have the views and opinions that you have stated so far. It looks like you enjoy and support marijuana and believe that it is not harmful, but haven't helped us come up with anything that could pursuade us otherwise.

[-IRC-MIKE]

It is not for everyone, but for a lot of people, it would not do any harm it if were legalized and they could smoke it. It would benefit this country IMO.

Sure.. you mean the part of society who do not have to think and make rational decisions that could affect the lives of others. The people who will have to work a minimum wage job to support their habit. We're talking about the people who would spend money to purchase that fat sack instead of putting a meal on the table for their family.

I wasn't flaming. Far from it. There's no reason for you to get pissed.. if anyone should get pissed by reading this thread it should be ME and other parents whose kids might come here and see other adults that I associate with condoning the use of illegal drugs.

Cheers!

~~mike~~

P.S. I don't want my kids to Drink alcohol, which IS legal....but I've done it and have paid the price.

[GeneralSnake]

Likewise hammy. I am not convinced it is bad.
I never said it isnt harmful.
And what if I can see situations from other peoples points of view? What does that make my world? Some weird, multiple planed world?
Just a side note:
I have not smoked since around July of last year, a few months before enlisting into the Corps. But even if I went the rest of my life never smoking again, I would feel the same way about it.
And ignorance is being uneducated, and isnt being uneducated stupid?
Isnt not being able to have the willpower to quit a plant weakness?
Mike, you totally just ripped on people who smoke man. Come on.

"Sure.. you mean the part of society who do not have to think and make rational decisions that could affect the lives of others. The people who will have to work a minimum wage job to support their habit. We're talking about the people who would spend money to purchase that fat sack instead of putting a meal on the table for their family"
So people who smoke pot dont have to think, they would rather smoke pot than feed their kids? They are going to get a minimum wage job because they smoke?
I am going to get a little personal here.

My mother was a heroin addict all of my life. My father left because of it.
My mom found a new man who was also a heroin addict.
He would beat me and my brother and make us do ridiculous stuff, like crushing tons of beer cans and putting them in bags before we go to school. Then we would get to school and teachers would ask why we smelt like beer.

Heroin came before me and my brother. There were many nights where there was no food on the table, we went half a year without running water and power because heroin came before paying bills.
We lost the house because heroin was more important.

When my grandpa found out about this, he made us move in with our father.
My father smokes weed. NOT ONCE since then have me or my brother gone hungry or without power or water in the house. NOT ONCE did he put his "addiction" before his children, like heroin made my mother do.

Please do not say that people who smoke pot will put it before their families. That is a lie plain and simple.

[Thrashdragon]

I hope I don't have to wonder about where my kids buy drugs, either...but if they do, that doesn't make me a failure as a parent. There comes a point where you are no longer the greatest influence on their life, and you have to hope that what you have taught them over the years is enough to help guide them through their high school and college years. I was raised by two awesome parents in a loving home, and I went completely off track about the time I turned 15. That was no fault of theirs, it was my fault. I was old enough to be responsible for my actions, and I credit the way I was raised with keeping me from doing anything really stupid, and most importantly, for giving me the moral center to get my life back on track.

All these points about impaired judgment and competency apply to alcohol, by the way. You can't legitimately apply these points to one and not the other, especially since alcohol is much more destructive to the body, and causes much greater lapses in judgment.

If you enjoy a beer after mowing the lawn on a hot afternoon you are no different than someone that enjoys a smoke instead. The only difference is that Uncle Sam says you can drink a beer, but you can't smoke a joint.

Since marijuana is illegal, when I was 15 years old I knew where to buy cocaine, heroin, and an Uzi (this was twenty years ago, Uzis were still "in"), thanks to having to buy it illegally. I never partook of those choices, but had marijuana been legal I wouldn't have had the slightest clue where to get these things.

If the government is unwilling to take the steps to stop it, a large portion of the population enjoys it, there is virtually no social stigma to it (I know several LEOs that partake, and even a President admitted to it), and it's considerably less harmful than a legal substance (alcohol), then why should we keep throwing people in jail for it? It's a waste of time and money. Either take steps to stop it or legalize it. This halfway crap isn't getting us anywhere.

I haven't touched pot or any other drug in over 15 years, but I fully support the rights of those who want the government to govern, not to be your mother.

[jeffro74]

i know who the pot heads are now!lol.
just kidding.

[-IRC-MIKE]

I am not saying the lesser of the two evils is okay... Having a beer after I cut the lawn on a hot afternoon is MUCH DIFFERENT than smoking a big fat one. First off .. I am not breaking the law. Secondly ONE beer is not going to intoxicate me to the point of irrational judgement...One joint will. Lastly, you say you were old enough to make logical decisions at the ripe old age of 15... evidently not true if you went "off track".

P.S. there are some places where alcohol is still illegal.. right here in the US. I used to live in a dry county.

[jeffro74]

instead of legalizing something so people dont get in trouble.it would be nice for people to be responsable,and obey the law.pot is pretty bad on your health,from what i hear(1 joint is like 10 cigerettes).

[-IRC-MIKE]

Mike, you totally just ripped on people who smoke man. Come on.

LOL.. I'm the bad guy?

I didn't rip on anyone! If the shoe fits .... My point is that this community of regulars is here because of the good, safe place it has earned the reputation of being. It is good for all ages. You have ripped on everyone who doesn't smoke, and those who don't want their kids to see that it "Is ok for some". In my opinion, merely suggesting that illegal drugs are "okay for some", defeats the purpose of cainslair and the reputation it has.

I really don't care if they legalize marijuana because the people who smoke it are still going to smoke it. I know what it does to people and legalizing it is going to spread the effects.

Everything you described ..how your mother was on heroine and everything.. I know people who treat marijuana the same way. They are addicted. They would steal to buy more of it (I've seen them do it). They can't hold a job. They are mostly divorced, or getting there. Some of them have had their children removed by child protective services. Denying that there is a pattern is your own choice. You can try to water it down to something it isn't all you want but it is what it is.

[Thrashdragon]

I am not saying the lesser of the two evils is okay... Having a beer after I cut the lawn on a hot afternoon is MUCH DIFFERENT than smoking a big fat one. First off .. I am not breaking the law. Secondly ONE beer is not going to intoxicate me to the point of irrational judgement...One joint will.

As long as you are at home then you're free to get as irrational as you want, but if you're going to get behind the wheel (about the only place where someone else's choice of intoxicant affects me) I'd rather you finish that joint off than drink a beer or two.

Lastly, you say you were old enough to make logical decisions at the ripe old age of 15... evidently not true if you went "off track".

I consider it "off track" now, I didn't then. I partied nonstop from 15 to 25 and had a blast doing it. I certainly wouldn't recommend it now, the world is a lot more dangerous and apparently everyone has an STD, but it was fun at the time. My point was that it wasn't my parents' fault, they are wonderful parents and managed to raise three productive members of society. One of them just had to go his own way for a little while first.

Children aren't exactly hidden from marijuana discussion. Clinton admitted smoking it on MTV, which is targeted at preteens. Cameron Diaz lit up in Something About Mary like it was no big deal. Avoiding the discussion here isn't protecting anyone, and I think anything that presents opposing viewpoints and teaches kids to actually think for themselves is a good thing.

[-IRC-MIKE]

There is a time and a place for everything, including teaching kids to make decisions (you can't think for them). In a perfect world, my kids will come to me and ask me if this or that was okay up until the age of 18 and even beyond. This world, unfortunately, isn't perfect so I have to intervene in their lives to make sure they stay on the straight and narrow until it is time for them to decide for themselves.

Avoiding the discussion isn't protecting anyone?

I'm not avoiding the discussion at all. I don't choose for anyone except my kids what discussions are for their eyes. Gay sex is discussed too but it isn't for my kids because I oversee that it isn't.

I have to ask you... how many kids do you have?


It is hard for most people to understand how fragile the mentality of a child is. Opinions can be easily swayed in one direction or another. Simply suggesting that my kids don't have to listen to what I say can impose a severe risk to the well being of my child..in more ways than one. Any parent will tell you that they'd rather wait till the time is right to discuss certain things with their child. My kids already know that doing drugs is bad for them and to tell me or their teacher if someone tries to give drugs to them. Then on the other hand, they could happen upon this forum or one like it where adults are discussing their use of a controlled substance, the feeling they get from it and how good it is, and all of the side effects of it and how it should be legalized. What their immature minds do not comprehend are the long term effects and risks involved that could cripple their futures if they took the advice of others who condone it.

I can tell you this much... I know it is inevitable that my kids will encounter a situation where drugs are involved. I only pray that they make the right decision. I should also pray for the poor poor soul who says it is okay for them to try it.... and for your sake I hope it isn't you!

It really isn't my decision to say that it is okay to have this discussion here. If I used drugs I hope that I would have better sense than to go to a public place where kids are known to be and try to force my opinion that drugs are okay. If you don't see something wrong with that, then the drugs have already done their work on you.