What is the world coming to?

[BigTwinky]

I thought the discussion was about legalizing pot and its effect and not about whether pot is legally used now.

My bad, didn't think the discussion swayed towards the current status of pot use.

And I guess my points of alchohol being in the exact same position as pot smoking and potentially as addictive video games in your examples aren't valid.

Then thats all I have to say
<echo>

[Trooper110]

Just look what happened when alcohol was made illegal to use during Prohibition. Increased organized crime to provide and support it, increased use of hard liquor as it was easier to brew up yourself and took less equipment than beer, impossible to control what you were getting from time to time. Feds spending large amounts of money to stop the illegal use of it. Now a lot of people drink, the goverment(s) make money off of taxes, it's regulated fairly well, and I'd say that the majority of people see no issue with using alcohol as long as it's not in excess that harms yourself and others. Put marijauna in the same light. As long as you're not using it irresponsibly there's not a lot of chance of marijuana doing any worse to you than alcohol can/will.

[-IRC-MIKE]

I didn't say anything about your other points not being valid. He doesn't play video games, but I do so I'll only assume you are directing your arguments toward the fact that I do have kids, play video games, and occasionally stay up late. If that is meant as a personal attack to again deflect from the situation or make some kind of analogy, then you have every right to do so and a good point. I'll respond like this:

I don't know about his situation or habits, but when my kids are home it is not very often that I do get to play video games or drink alcohol. I have a six pack in the fridge right now and it has been sitting there for over a week. Before that fact is twisted around into something it isn't I'll add that my kids don't have access to this refrigerator. Fortunately, my kids are well behaved and are in bed at a decent hour and when they are, the wife and I set aside time for ourselves to do things that we like to do to relax or for entertainment. Fortunately my parents are alive, so they choose to actively spend time with my children on a regular basis and when so, I have more free time to do things around the house or if I choose to do so, play a video game for an hour or two while drinking a beer.

There. I hope I sufficiently defended myself in your hypothetical attack on whomever you were referring to -- even though it is not illegal to drink a beer and play a video game even IF my kids and wife are at home playing with their toys and respectively cooking dinner. Speaking of which, there they are pulling in the drive right now.

As it stands right now, it is also not illegal to drink one beer and get behind the wheel even though I don't do it. According to the law you have to have a certain amount in your body before it is deemed breaking the law. Where the technicality lies is here: You can drink a beer or a glass of wine without the intentions of getting drunk, but can you smoke a joint without the intentions of getting high? Maybe for medicinal reasons you could technically answer yes to that, but for all recreational purposes... I don't know anyone who smokes pot because they enjoy the taste.

[Hammy]

Just look what happened when alcohol was made illegal to use during Prohibition. Increased organized crime to provide and support it, increased use of hard liquor as it was easier to brew up yourself and took less equipment than beer, impossible to control what you were getting from time to time. Feds spending large amounts of money to stop the illegal use of it. Now a lot of people drink, the goverment(s) make money off of taxes, it's regulated fairly well, and I'd say that the majority of people see no issue with using alcohol as long as it's not in excess that harms yourself and others. Put marijauna in the same light. As long as you're not using it irresponsibly there's not a lot of chance of marijuana doing any worse to you than alcohol can/will.

Cite source the State of Nevada-
I saw a documentary on National Geographic HD last night. Gambling, prostitution, and drugs place them as the US #1 state with Gang Violence according to some study they named.

They are the nations top producer of Meth.
They have the nations top 1-3 (depending on the study they said) most violent crimes committed last year.
The arrest study they did in Reno showed that the most prevalent arrest was gang related, drug related, included a weapons charge, and was most often including violence.

Evidently, you think that drugs has been such a Utopian value that it has brought togeather the worlds' best-- by what example are we talking about here?

Noble causes bring noble people and minds. If it were a perfect idea, then the right people would have already made it possible. The fact is that the people you need behind you to make such a statement true are not out there.

Prohibition is a BAD example:

Legalize one drug, they make another.
Legalize that one, they find another one to make.

So the solution is to simply legalize it all? Why?

[BigTwinky]

I didn't say anything about your other points not being valid. He doesn't play video games, but I do so I'll only assume you are directing your arguments toward the fact that I do have kids, play video games, and occasionally stay up late. If that is meant as a personal attack to again deflect from the situation or make some kind of analogy, then you have every right to do so and a good point.

Personal attack? Uh, no. Just a method of comparison that the pitfalls, problems, issues, consumption and what not of alchohol today are the same as what they would be for video games (potentially) and would be for pot should it be legalized.

To think that we can't discuss a point/argument without thinking that its a personal attack or meaning that anyone here is doing said thing is kinda showing me that the thread has been hashed out too much and there is no longer any discussion going on, just attempts to attack and defend.

And again, no point bringing up that drinking or playing a game is illegal. That was not the original intent of this discussion.

[Thrashdragon]

Prohibition is a BAD example:

Legalize one drug, they make another.
Legalize that one, they find another one to make.

So the solution is to simply legalize it all? Why?

Actually, prohibition is a very good example, because alcohol IS a drug. It just happens to be a legal one.

[BigTwinky]

Evidently, you think that drugs has been such a Utopian value that it has brought togeather the worlds' best-- by what example are we talking about here?

<snip>

Prohibition is a BAD example:

Legalize one drug, they make another.
Legalize that one, they find another one to make.

So the solution is to simply legalize it all? Why?

I don't think those that are defending the legalization of pot are talking about ALL drugs. In the quote you made of Troopers post, he said marijuana, not meth, not all drugs.

I think it was even stated in the early days of this thread that we are talking about pot...not heroine, no cocaine, not meth, not mushrooms, not LSD, not anything other that pot.

I think that attempting to legaliza all drugs is wrong. However, I feel that as a society, we have lumped all drugs in together when I think they should not be. I do not think that marijuana is in the same category as meth. And Mike, I am NOT talking about the current legal category of it being illegal. I know it is illegal right now.

I think that at times, we need to take a step back and revise some of our laws and rules. It has been done in the past, as the world changes, so should our laws and regulations.

I think the time is right to look into the legalization of marijuana, keeping in mind that abuse of the drug is very similar to abuse to alchohol. I think we should decriminalize posssession of the drug, as long as there is no intent to sell (put a limit on what someone can carry). Just as drinking in public is not legal (hence people with paper bags), so should smoking pot in public.

Selling pot should be done via legal ways, and not just anyone anywhere. It should be regulated by the government. Moneys made from sale of pot should go and help fight the fight against the harder, illegal drugs.

People who smoke and abuse should be treated the same as people who drink and abuse... at the workplace, in the care of a child, in a car, in public,... I have still not seen any evidence posted here that things, should marijuana be legal, would be any different that pot.

And some "arguments" already posted about people abusing pot in the presence of children and what not are pretty much confirming that pot can be treated the same as alchohol should it be legal.

Damn, I said I'm done with the thread, but you people keep quoting me.

[Minerva]

I didn't say anything about your other points not being valid. He doesn't play video games, but I do so I'll only assume you are directing your arguments toward the fact that I do have kids, play video games, and occasionally stay up late. If that is meant as a personal attack to again deflect from the situation or make some kind of analogy, then you have every right to do so and a good point. I'll respond like this:

I don't know about his situation or habits, but when my kids are home it is not very often that I do get to play video games or drink alcohol. I have a six pack in the fridge right now and it has been sitting there for over a week. Before that fact is twisted around into something it isn't I'll add that my kids don't have access to this refrigerator. Fortunately, my kids are well behaved and are in bed at a decent hour and when they are, the wife and I set aside time for ourselves to do things that we like to do to relax or for entertainment. Fortunately my parents are alive, so they choose to actively spend time with my children on a regular basis and when so, I have more free time to do things around the house or if I choose to do so, play a video game for an hour or two while drinking a beer.

There. I hope I sufficiently defended myself in your hypothetical attack on whomever you were referring to -- even though it is not illegal to drink a beer and play a video game even IF my kids and wife are at home playing with their toys and respectively cooking dinner. Speaking of which, there they are pulling in the drive right now.

As it stands right now, it is also not illegal to drink one beer and get behind the wheel even though I don't do it. According to the law you have to have a certain amount in your body before it is deemed breaking the law. Where the technicality lies is here: You can drink a beer or a glass of wine without the intentions of getting drunk, but can you smoke a joint without the intentions of getting high? Maybe for medicinal reasons you could technically answer yes to that, but for all recreational purposes... I don't know anyone who smokes pot because they enjoy the taste.

Mike, I guess BT will clarify it, but I didn't understand his examples as any personal attack. I think those were interesting examples. And I don't think you have to justify at all your parent skills to any of us! Who are we to judge anyone?? Plus I am sure you are an excellent father

Let's not use Aristotelian Syllogisms!

[ThisElfRocksHard]

I don't like to blow my own horn, but since nobody else will...

I spent four years of my life studying crime and its effects on society. Let me explode the "Prohibition was bad" myth right now--the intent of the law was to get fewer people drinking. What happened? Fewer people drank. There was an increase in crime, sure, but it was nowhere near the amount that you see in the movies; more gangsters died in Hollywood movies than on the streets of Chicago.

Furthermore, I feel that the analogy of alcohol and pot is very valuable. What are the two most lethal drugs in America? Heroin and cocaine? PCP and Ecstasy? Nope, alcohol and tobacco. What do these two drugs have in common? They are both legal. As they are legal, they are more likely to be consumed, as they are FAR more convenient. Higher consumption = higher lethality.

Pot is natural. So is tobacco. Don't think for a second that the government will legalize marijuana and all of a sudden Phillip Morris WON'T put in some sort of additive to enhance its pleasurable attributes (like they do with tobacco).

Drunk driving is a problem in all countries. Legalizing marijuana will add high driving as a problem as well.

I have never smoked marijuana, but I smoke tobacco and I drink. If you have or do smoke marijuana, I won't judge you. I WILL however, state that I think that the legalization of marijuana, based on the data I have, would be imprudent.

[-IRC-MIKE]

Aristotelian Syllogisms!

What'd she just call me?



I know.. I had stated in another thread somewhere where I had stayed up entirely too late (4:00 a.m. was exactly the time I mentioned) a few days ago playing WoW and some COD4 (with a friend) and had a few beers, hence the reason I stated things such as "hypothetical" and "whomever you were referring to". Don't get me wrong, I am in no way offended and I'm glad to share my parenting habits as well as my personal opinions on illegal drug use. It is not only defensive but offensive since I'm proud of how skillfully I juggle my day-to-day life in this colorful world.

[-IRC-MIKE]

I agree!

We should revise some laws.

OK.. what do you think would happen if they made marijuana LEGAL for just one month?

(Aside from the IMMEDIATE shortage of chicken dung and farm equipment ..not to mention the worldwide traffic jams due to undecisive, attention deficient drivers and passengers.)

[Hammy]

Law enforcement would get a raise

Thanks Homeland Security!

[Trooper110]

I think there'd be a lot more dumb***** out in public high...who would hopefully promptly be arrested for being high in public...just as you would be for being drunk in public. And a lot more DUI charges and arrests as well. I'd guess you'd probably have a spike in sales of legal marijuana due to people trying it who had always wanted to but been afraid due to the illegality. Then a drop off as people realized that getting high is just as dumb as getting really drunk and doesn't really do all that much more for you in any case. Honestly....I've done both....don't do either anymore (at least not drinking to drunkenness) and when I did it, I would much rather drink than get high.

[-IRC-MIKE]

I'm with you trooper. I tried it and I didn't like it. Nobody forced me and I did it out of curiosity. If it were legal I can honestly say that I still wouldn't like it. It makes me hate to be around anyone which is totally opposite of my personality and I just want to get away from everyone and sleep it off. I might get drunk once every six months or so, and I probably drink an average of a 12 pack a month but I'd prefer to drink over anything else.

On another note, the current pot dealers would surely go broke since a lot of them wouldn't know where to begin to grow it themselves, so you'd have to look out for them stealing from you. The current farmers would make a killing until their product was slammed by government taxation and the packaged product hit the shelves. You'd still have the occasional boot-leg product, but with legalization, you have to imagine that they'd grow some freaky stuff.

[BigTwinky]

You should see some of the freaky stuff that they grow now. If pot smokers thing all they are smoking is pot, they are sorely mistaken. Buying stuff off a street dealer is very dangerous as they "fill" their baggie with some pretty nasty things.