A Plea to CLRs

[Rand{CLR}]

I'm not saying this is a rule--it's not. I'm saying that CLRs are expected to show a little sportsmanship, and that I'm not seeing it from some.

-Rand

[Skud]

Haven't seen too many CLRs do it, but have seen some. Really makes for a fun game when your squad is wiped out and then you can't even leave base...worse than poor sportsmanship: it's parasitic. But, hey, I'm old school...some kids will beat another 5 on 1 these days. Code of honor: dead.

Also, if they'd spent a little more time or money on development, maybe the game would have a somewhat floating/randomized spawn in base to make spawn camping at least a little difficult for the chumps. Just another small failure, IMO.

[Minerva]

Isnt the idea of the game to be realistic? Or in real life you are going to ask polite your enemy to leave because you dont like it? Come on guys.

You don't spawn in real life.

while everyone else cowers around like women

But in all seriousness, I am with Rand here. I was so frustrated yesterday night I almost wanted to quit. I don't see a rule in Rand words but more of a common sense expression regarding certain ways of playing.

[{CLR} ObiTroy]

You don't spawn in real life.

[darth_nevus]

I suppose I see it all differently. Feel free to call me out by name if it gratifies an individual's need for a sense of urgency in this matter. I will neither defend, nor wane in opinions of my actions in this matter. I will however point out that regardless of what code of ethics anyone sets forth, someone will take issue and concern with.

The truth is the concept of spawn camping, sportsmanship, honor, and justification in these matters is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone who plays sees what's acceptable differently, and while we may be made and held accountable for OUR actions, those of other individuals, especially those who may feel victimized by any set of events. and individual's morale change more often than you can change underwear. How you handle it is of your own accord.

You can lay forth a framework for the general actions of an individual, but their interpretation will always differ from the intent. It’s called human nature. While ones perception of the intent is shapes their definition, a community of individuals will always have a difference of opinion, especially when its determined what’s acceptable, and when, and how, and in what way. We all play I am sure to our interpretation of the intent of the spirit of the community, and of that I am sure. Its why we are all here, play here, kill here, talk here, laugh here, and cry here.

There are too may flaws and justifications in any plan set in place. The Code of ethics any one individual lives and plays by in this game, is summarily over shadowed by the limitations and expectations any individual who plays this or any game, and even by the game itself precludes us to. I'm sorry, but I myself see serious fault with the prescribed concepts themselves set forth in the posts on this matter.

Any individual who plays this game with be exhilarated when they are on a roll, or humiliated and completely abhorred when things don't go their way. There is no prescribed doctrine on what "sportsmanship" is how should be so long as there exists the possibility of rogue elements, agendas, or even modus operandi.

I pose the following as questions that you yourselves can make your own determination on. Stop and think of EVERY possible outcome, how it affects you, your victim, your team, the opposing team. And then watch as you the individual have just made your own justifications. I reverently request that you reflect on your own answers before jumping or falling off any bandwagon, and just as I am fallible, so are you as the individual. How is it any less ethical.....

1. If I sneak into said base to steal a vehicle, and kill people as I move along either because the opportunity presented itself, I feared they would see me, they would pose a threat to my immediate escape, they have pinned down a comrade at a spawning location, etc, is it acceptable?

2. If I am defending is it even acceptable for me to attempt to steal said item?

3. If I am attacking is it even acceptable for me to attempt to steal said item?

4. The booby trap set in place itself, does it not constitute spawn camping by not allowing me to exit the base, and thereby become spawn camping itself?

5. Who is to judge how many people I kill as spawn camping to provide the opportune moment to exit "behind enemy lines"

6. How many people killed is justifiable in the pursuit of these endeavors?

7. When, in ANY of the times you've ever done said actions have you EVER left immediately, without regards for your own safety, and drove straight through without killing an individual?

8. Sitting on the back side of your lines ones the item is stolen, and camping entrances or the only movement points going forward?

9. If a sniper, from across the map, whose sole duty is to spot and kill people of the opposing faction, catches a target after he spawns, knowingly or not, and kills him, is it acceptable?

10. Is using armor when you’re in a server 8 people full or less even acceptable given the clear advantage make it any more noble a cause?

11. Yelling at people about using rock launchers, while using them myself?

12. Grabbing a medics kit from besides me, and running away in pursuit of an engagement, and not reviving the poor souls whose gear I just procured?

These are but a few questions. I don't feel the need to get all worked up and begin sprouting discourse every time it happens. anyone’s justification of why will inevitably outweigh my determination of the moral implications of their actions, and does not accept their own.

Maps, ESPECAILLY Rush types, which we seem to be running only 2 of, are notorious for lack of fixed spawn points. However, there are actually several possible spawning locations for an area, determined at random by the game itself. If I'm moving through or attempting to find a better location by which to defend or attack my objective, I, like anyone else, am going to start firing at anything that moves.

Certainly no one can discount the benefits or the purposeful intent of a flanking maneuver. Simply because someone’s position places them in-between an individual and the objective can be argued from a strategic standpoint, as "unfair practices".

To that end, an individual has the option to spawn or not spawn if their position is unfavorable. In Rush maps in general, ANY spawn location is unfavorable. I'm not going to wait for someone to walk up and shake my hand with one arm, and plant a knife with the other. Nor am I going to allow myself to become cannon fodder if it comes to that. Making a martyr of myself to prove a point or relegate discontent unto another individual because of unfavorable skill, or perceived "fairness" the opposing individual may have taken.

If a gun can fire from across the map, and a bullet can strike a target from across the map, and even if it’s my bullet dealing the killing blow, regardless of the other individuals who may be standing right on top of a spawn point, the red seen will always be directed at those which at finger can be pointed.

Forgive my terseness in this matter, but it’s one thing if an individual has a concern with something to bring it to another individuals attention, and another thing completely to perverse a topic such as this as a thinly veiled attempt at a witch hunt for ideals which anyone feels are contrary to their own. A directive such as this is tantamount to forcing a larger paradigm of reason which cannot have a solvable outcome regardless of intent to contention.

One thing failed to have been mentioned in any of the posts thus far is that there are far too many variables for any given situation, especially when provided the justifications any of us can draw with regards to a particular engagement that in the end outweigh predisposed thinking.

I highly doubt any of us walk into any situation with the sole purpose of purported spawn killing as the predetermined course of action. I take object myself to any sort personal or general attack that suggests the intent is to suppress anyone else’s willingness to play, or have a good time.

In the end, both on a personal and a team level, there are winners and losers. How you chose to approach your particular role in the endgame itself is your own distinct choice. I will continue to judge my own forgone actions, as anyone else here does, based on my own code of ethic much as anyone else here will, and will react in a manner best suited to my determination of logical thinking in the same way anyone else here will, and reach the same end conclusions based on that which I have just mentioned that any other individual will. The difference lies in that mine may be different than theirs, just as theirs will be seen differently as any other person playing with, for, by, next to, and against will.

I am sorry anyone has seen my actions themselves in a negative light, but i afford you my own justification that they were to the letter of the law, and based as closely to the Spirit of the Lair as I have applied previously. I, you, and the lair is a constantly evolving and unique place, and my own course of action is to always better myself. But, in the same token, any apology is unwarrented unlessa clear indication is presented to me that i have in someway neglected the core fundamentals of the place i have grown to love and adore. It's not to say I won't apoligize, because of that I certainly will. If you have concern with me, please feel free to bring it to my attention, and I will respond accordingly.

We may not see eye to eye on the methods or conclusion arrived to based on this. While my point will probably be lost on anyone not open to the interpretation I have laid forth, realized or not, anyone's acceptance or not of their own faults or anything I have said above has already made its point.

The opinions drawn from the above by anyone have, only asserted their individualness in the reader's eyes, as well as the author's. I leave you not with Justification for anyone’s or my own actions, but one word alone.

Perception.

[darth_nevus]

I will add i hold no angst or disdain towards anyone, and be that as it may, please feel free to comment to me either way in an informal setting if there is something or interpretation you disagree with.

I'm always open.

[bobytt]

Very well said Darth.

[K PhaNTOM]

I can say I read an entire book now.

[BigTwinky]

I am against artificial restrains. If DICE made it possible. I don't see reason not to do it. Whatever area they want us to stay out we have 10 seconds to leave. Isnt the idea of the game to be realistic? Or in real life you are going to ask polite your enemy to leave because you dont like it? Come on guys.

Using the "if this were real life" is a little lame because in real life, if you get shot in the head, you are dead, you dont respawn. Your game should uninstall from your system and never allow you do play again.

Its a game... its not real life. Being realistic is great, but it should also be fun. Apply the logic if it being a game and trying to make it fun, as per what Cain lays down as the rules. Cain's Lair is about having fun with friends...its about the community, not about a k/d ratio or making the other team rage. Spawn camping in instances can totally ruin the game for everyone on the other team. And if you wear the CLR tag, you endorse and follow this way of playing.

In past games, people could apply fair play and some sort of logic in terms of knowing if you should or should not do something. In BF2, running into the enemy camp and stealing a vehicle was part of the game. Spawn camping could be part of the game, but as a CLR, it should not be.

I would think most people here are here to play as CLRs.

[BuzzSaw55]

Not that I disagree with this, especially on maps like Laguna Alta (conquest), where the bottlenecks ensure you will be trapped in the spawn if the enemy chooses to use such tactics, but I thought making rules like this are contrary to the nature of a "ranked" server.

There is nothing in the ROE that says you cant prohibit Base raping, any forum Ive seen employs of EA in they actually have encouraged people concerned about base rape to play on servers that have this rule in place.

Joe

[ch33s3r]

I don't consciously think to myself, "tee hee hee I'm going to get to their spawn and kill each and every one of them as they spawn! " But as darth said, if I am in the enemy base and I see an enemy running around, you better believe I'm going to shoot at them. If I know the general direction that enemies are coming from (or spawning from), I am going to be looking in that direction as I move around or guard objectives or provide cover for teammates. I think it would be foolish NOT to. So if you spawn in that area and run from that area and I see you, you're getting shot (unless I miss of course ).

[bobytt]

Twinky i try to understand people that cry for base rape , but i cant... And i really cant care less if somebody doesnt like that i am in his base. What i should do when my team lose some base? Suicide myself? You've been ridiculous. If i am left behind, i kill and destroy as many people and vehicles i can. If they can the opposite is going to kill me. Anyway nobody is coming to help me, since dice prevent it. So whats the big deal? If that happens to me i get mad and find and kill whoever doing it to me. i doesnt give *** about K/D ratio i play medic does that ring a bell to you? I have the worst K/D ratio from my friends, but i have the best team score from all of them.

And you said it its not a real life, its a game. Crying for something like this its sad. Its a war game not a Barbie Fashion Show

[Skud]

It's not too taxing on the mind to figure out the difference between spawn camping/base raping and entering the enemy's base at a weak point on one's way to destroying the objective. If one finds the difference elusive after the amount of discussion already posted here, I'm guessing a few more words or pages will make little progress towards enlightenment.

I always have fun playing with CLRs...even under the worst conditions I am able to laugh with those who understand the spirit that the purpose of this thread, I'm guessing, is trying to promote. CLRs.

[bobytt]

Is there difference? How you can tell that in a game? Unless is long after the base is lost? I've been in other team base for pretty long time. After my team lost it. I would say they couldn't tell the difference.

Do i enjoy giving them hard time? Yes i do. To do so it requires skills. And i do it every single time i can. If they kill me is over. But that doesnt change it. its base rape.

[Rand{CLR}]

I'm not calling out individuals by name, and I don't hold grudges. A few people in the conversation and out know at least one of the names that I could put out from last night's example. Others could probably figure it out if they follow the thread.

I do want to point to a few specifics raised by Darth in his post and offer a response.

Maps, ESPECAILLY Rush types, which we seem to be running only 2 of, are notorious for lack of fixed spawn points. However, there are actually several possible spawning locations for an area, determined at random by the game itself. If I'm moving through or attempting to find a better location by which to defend or attack my objective, I, like anyone else, am going to start firing at anything that moves.

The key map in question from last night that led to my post was Valpariso. It was by no means the only map where this behavior occurs. It was by no means the only time I've seen it happen, not even the only time I've seen it happen with CLRs. You've all seen other people posting in this thread that they've seen it and experienced the frustration themselves.

Before I get to the point for this piece, keep this in mind: if CLRs and admins among us are seeing this frustration and several are admitting to leaving the game or nearly leaving because of it, think about this: what about NEW PLAYERS to the server? What do you think this does to them? We will never see those folks again. Is that in the spirit of being a CLR?

Now, to this paragraph--fixed spawns and Valpariso. Anyone playing this two map rotation the past few days plays both sides of both maps and knows where the white spawn target circles are. Valpariso stage one is in the NW corner of the shoreline behind MCOM B.

When I first entered the game on this round, the attacking Bradley was already sitting on the outside edge of where this spawn target exists. (I load slow, thanks to my 4870 card). Even with the slightly random nature of the fixed spawns, there aren't any spawn locations ahead of a line drawn south of that point, e.g. where that main gun was set. To the Bradley, everyone spawns straight on or to the right, making spawn camping quite easy.

This goes a bit beyond the pale in attacking or defending MCOM B, because said position can keep anyone from moving to either MCOM or off the beach/piers. This was a 10-12 person round btw. It would be difficult at best for a full team to get past this situation, let alone that number.

This general setting up of camp at the white fixed spawn circle areas continued on phases 3 and 4 of Valpariso (2 went fast). On 3, the village at the shore, a full squad was on the roof of the one and only building behind the spawn target area, with a perfect view down of the freshly spawned. On 4 (2 huts, helipad), a squad set up at the helipad fixed spawn target. These are all examples from one map on one night but are illustrative of what I and others have observed for weeks to some degree or other.

To that end, an individual has the option to spawn or not spawn if their position is unfavorable. In Rush maps in general, ANY spawn location is unfavorable.

Second sentence, not true, particularly if a squad member has broken out of the spawn area. To the first, technically true, but in the situation above, the choice was essentially spawn and die, spawn and try to do a bit of damage and die so that others may chip away, or sit there while A and B are taken out to finally spawn where it is safe: map extension 2. Cain's Lair, and CLRs, are supposed to be about fun with friends. Where's the fun in this?

Forgive my terseness in this matter, but it?s one thing if an individual has a concern with something to bring it to another individuals attention, and another thing completely to perverse a topic such as this as a thinly veiled attempt at a witch hunt for ideals which anyone feels are contrary to their own. A directive such as this is tantamount to forcing a larger paradigm of reason which cannot have a solvable outcome regardless of intent to contention.

Witch hunt? Hardly.

As to the specifics the paragraph is eloquently dancing around, an individual was called out as to the behavior observed, as were others in general terms. Said behavior continued. The basis of the thread is to spread the word to all CLRs that this type of behavior is utterly against the spirit of being a CLR. It also has extreme dangers in terms of attracting new players to the server (and therefore keeping it alive).

"Directive?" Again, hardly. For the four or five of you who continue to argue against the spirit of the original post, let me lay it out again. This is not a rule. Period.

But it is certainly not in keeping with the sportsmanship spirit of what it means to wear the CLR tag. And this is what the thread is about.

One thing failed to have been mentioned in any of the posts thus far is that there are far too many variables for any given situation, especially when provided the justifications any of us can draw with regards to a particular engagement that in the end outweigh predisposed thinking.

It is not like this is a new discussion. It comes up with every game Cain has run since BF2, with the exception perhaps of TF2 and DOD:S where the concept of spawn camping is quite different by nature of how Valve handled the setups compared to say, DICE or Infinity Ward. Over time the "variables" have been discussed ad nauseum.

I highly doubt any of us walk into any situation with the sole purpose of purported spawn killing as the predetermined course of action. I take object myself to any sort personal or general attack that suggests the intent is to suppress anyone else?s willingness to play, or have a good time.

Sometimes I'm not so sure about the first part of this. As to the second, intent or not surely the opposition to the original post can see how behavior such as spawn camping has an enormous impact on other people's willingness to play and conception of whether they are having a good time.

Perception.

This works both ways, but one also needs to step out of their own box of perceptions from time to time and view things from other perspectives. The best perspective to view any game Cain runs, any grouping of CLRs together, is that of the player brand new to the server, and what they perceive as they play.

And one can try to recall what they first thought before playing enough to join this community. What may have been different that just would have led one to select the next random server on the browser for the next session?

-Rand