A Plea to CLRs

[mapes]

I agree with bobytt when in rush and the new section of the map opens up which makes me technically behind enemy lines I'm not going to run. I'm going to kill as many as I can.

Also in one of the lagoon type maps there's a spawn point that is behind a natural choke point. Technically your not spawn killing because that choke point is forward of the spawn. To not use natural terrain to your advantage is kinda hard for me to take in a war game.

I've found if a concentrated effort of spawn camping is going on it's either the team being camped was losing already and it's culminated in the spawn rapage or the team doing the camping losses because of not enough assets to defend or attack the objective. I therefore don't see a problem in it. Have I been a victim of it. Sure. Have I done it? Sure usually when the other team is already beaten back and there is nothing else to do.

I will however respect the rules of the server. Although I do play on other servers too.

[mapes]

While we're talking about rules (and maybe I should open another thread) but, I need to ask what about swearing in game voip or text? Well text is censured. I kinda think the prohibition is pointless since the game uses foul language or is that a tunable parameter I've not found?

[Rand{CLR}]

While we're talking about rules (and maybe I should open another thread) but, I need to ask what about swearing in game voip or text? Well text is censured. I kinda think the prohibition is pointless since the game uses foul language or is that a tunable parameter I've not found?

It's supposed to be an option of the newest patch, but I'm not sure it's out yet. It hasn't installed on Steam, to my knowledge.

But given Cain's normal server rules on language, I don't know if he would use that option or not.

Either way, that filter is amusing in so many ways.

-Rand

[Caddys83]

I like the filter cause it can let me type !^&#$ when I'm angry

[K PhaNTOM]

I like the filter cause it can let me type !^&#$ when I'm angry

Yes, caddys. You can also count to 5. We are all proud of you

[darth_nevus]

I write this post In defiance of my own previous statements regarding retailiation. I had hoped a retort wasn't necessary, but as i said once prior, not everyone will see the err of their own ways, and will instead focus on those of others.The intelligent discourse prior was my way attempting to stay on the non-combative side of my personality. I was wrong in this sense, and what follows pains me no less. I was really hoping you'd leave it alone at a non-directed response of concern.

Valpraiso is a CRAPPY map, MADE for spawn camping. This is why its so popular. Because either your being camped, or your camping. If your team is incapable you get camped. Campers liking camping. That map in particular is so "condensed" it Breed mayhem. That's why bring along their fishing poles, and bait for people who are after the same thing. If your looking for a picnic in the woods, this map isn't it. The bears are waiting, and thanks to the entire way the WHOLE map is designed, its made to funnel one side, or the other into the grinder.

Now, if admins or other CLR's take issue with whats happening, a slightly more intellgient way is to KLINDLY ask them to stop, if thats indeed whats happening for their perception. The kind of beligereant retorts floating around INSTEAD of this from people seeing RED and nothing BUT RED begets ignorance. Far too often, I hear MORE insults, laments, etc from the admins as of late, than i do from even the regulars. If you want to start a wagon train, you gotta start it from the front, not the end of the line.

I agree we want to foster a community of like minded welcoming individuals who want to have fun. But when you yourself drag a tank out of attacking force's base, killing everyone inbetween, regardless of the body count on the server, and camp in the defenseive area, I'll bring that up too. You completely missed the point, and i didn't wnt to bring crap like this up because for the most part, NO ONE is able to escape the judgement of their own actions by themselves. Instead, some folks have decided to JUSTIFY THEM.

Fine, whatever, its not a rule. But you've openly played the cards of what YOU deemed acceptable. I have done no less, but no more either. And frankly, i consider it camping as well. A low body count server of 8-10 people doesn't need armour dominating. And yet, while not a "rule" as a suggestion, its not followed as well. Where in the Spirit of being a CLR, sportsmanship, or whatever you want to call it, does crap like that become justified? Just as actions were justified by my decisions, yours are by your own justification as well. PLEASE, tell me how actions like this are ANY less deterimental than people getting trapped at a spawn point.

Now, as far as the game mechanics are concerned, there are several spawn locations on every map, in every stage, and its pretty hard to monitor them all. because the "white circle" is where you assumed your spawning, it is not. the white circle only indicates which spawn location you have selected. if its on a squaddie, you spawn on him, if its a startion point, be it an Mcom or a flag, its from a RANDOM selection of several points. 2 bodies never occupy the same point.

Now, that section of the map, I spent 90% of my time on foot, on the assualt side of the map, trying to push forward. Half the time i was stuck on the hill because of 'private pooh' or whatever his name was at the bottom of the hill with the shotgun-o-doom. The rest of the time, Soon to be unnameless CLR-tagged people sat there spamming gustav's. Congrats! we've moved onto the same round about ple of crap you just went through! Different tactic, sifferent situation, same ole crap!

So before you go off sprouting crap about spawn camping, my squad, 2 medics, 2 snipers(up on the hill) were traversing on foot and effectively made little headway, except to kill the folks who WERE camping their own spawn by not moving and just firing. Now, if you sit in your spawn point and fire away, like i said before, i shure as hell am goin gto light you up. Lack of retaliation might make you feel happy inside, but its a load of horse crap to me. and if you spawn next to some other person who is sitting in their own spawn area sluging away, you'll die too.

"sitting in your spawn area's" for 3 of the turns is crap as well. There are plenty of places to spawn, plenty of damamge to be dealt, and vulnerable locations. you're not exactly free and clear on this crap either. I've weatched everyone doing, adamns and reglaurs. so the day you want to stand up and go apeshit on me for practicing the same crap EVERYONE else is doing, the first step, is to cut the shit out yourself, and then worry about other peope doing it. i never said i've never been in the situation before, but your stance thats its unacceptable and wrong only makes you a hypocrite.

What's "Acceptable" changes every round, depending on whose ass is being handed to them. After that, if everyone bitched, excuses will roll. Enough of it! I'm sorry you and a few others had a bad round against overwhelming opposition. However, the same thing happened the round before when roles were reveresed. The difference was no one bitched about it. we took our licks, and waited our turn. Its a shitty map, and its built for competiive, not cooperative gameplay.

>>Quote:
>>Originally Posted by darth_nevus
>>To that end, an individual has the option to spawn or not spawn if their position is unfavorable. In Rush maps in general, >>ANY spawn location is unfavorable.

>>Second sentence, not true, particularly if a squad member has broken out of the spawn area. To the first, technically true, >>but in the situation above, the choice was essentially spawn and die, spawn and try to do a bit of damage and die so that >>others may chip away, or sit there while A and B are taken out to finally spawn where it is safe: map extension 2. Cain's >>Lair, and CLRs, are supposed to be about fun with friends. Where's the fun in this?

From a tactical standpoint I was referring STATIONARY spawnpoints. I see your anger has gotten you into this pervise line of thinking, and i'm sorry that i either did not explain it clearly enough either before or after this particular section of commentation or that your tangent so far off course to prove a point tht you can't see the color blue anymore. The location of the spawn points on Rush pmaps, especially valpraiso, is limited so that there is VERY little room between the spawns and the objectives. there's even less room into "out of bounds" territory.

If I were you i'd reevaluate your own actions before you want to go off on another rampage and hide it behind "fun and friends". If you want to express it to the extreme you have up till now, your own actions come into question. Preaching Selebacy and having 12 kids doesn't exactly lend any credance to your cause. I never said myself i am absolved of what can be interpreted negatively. I at least admitted it, before i made my points. So before we continue on the track you seem to want steer the wagon train towards i'd recommend recanting your words., and giving some serious thought to what your going to say next.

This isn't he first, or last time ithis will come up. but a tad more diplomacy goes a long way the next time. Personally attacking anyone regardless of how openly or not you wish to present it, only causes retribution esepecially from the directed intendant. And i am NOT the person you wish to drag into this. I've been told i have anger management issues. But by engaging me indirectly, you have not skirted the issue. but instead dragged me into it, and very pointedly i might add. I have viewed this as an attempt to call me out, and as such, i'm calling back. reality isn't always so black and white.

>>Quote:
>>Originally Posted by darth_nevus
>>I highly doubt any of us walk into any situation with the sole purpose of purported spawn killing as the predetermined >>course of action. I take object myself to any sort personal or general attack that suggests the intent is to suppress >>anyone else?s willingness to play, or have a good time.

>>Sometimes I'm not so sure about the first part of this. As to the second, intent or not surely the opposition to the >>original post can see how behavior such as spawn camping has an enormous impact on other people's willingness to play and >>conception of whether they are having a good time.

And to your own opinion, you are entitled. and to your open vocalization of it. But the need to drag me personally into it is out of line, regardless of who you are. because i am 100% sure you had no spy in my sqaud, had no knowledge of my whereabouts or actions, just that "Rand got killed by darth nevus" and the demons have creeped up from the depths of hell to punish him. Bravo. You've outed me, with much less the information as to my location, and failed to make metion of anything else that may be negative, yet is personally acceptable to yourself.

Stepping out of my own perception box to look about and revise my straetegy to be the least annoying possible is a daily trial for me. its one of the reasons i even started switching up weapons. However, your comment on this only demonstrates your own lack understanding of the basic concept, that things are not always as they appear. and instead have a larger thirst for vengance than I previously thought.

I will apoligize to the community for the public head to which this has risen. It should have never come here, but been dealt with FIRST on a more personal level. to avoid any misconceivned or actual transgressions. I shouldn't have digested or disected the response In the way I have. Perception of whats being said, regardless of intent, is far more of a deadly weapon that appears i should be playing with in my arsenal. I will never argue against any comments of being pompus and arrogant.

I hope for your sake this ends here, as continuing on this pass is not exactly doing anything for either our reputations. Mine is far from impovrished, but i do not joke to myself that it is not pristine. And here we meet. i leave the decision in your hands.

I Recommend this thread closed.

[Caddys83]

I'm going have to re-read through all of this tonight. I just skimed it the first pass I came into this topic.

[{CLR} Major.Massacre]

Count your blessings you guys dont play me on Atacama desert Conquest. If my team holds A,B, and C I will rape your base with my gunship and not give you an inch to move forward. Why should I allow the enemy a chance to get a foothold, when it might let them win? My squad always repels base rapers to get our chopper back in the air. If your getting killed too much change your tactics.

[{CLR} Cobalt]

I suppose I see it all differently. Feel free to call me out by name if it gratifies an individual's need for a sense of urgency in this matter. I will neither defend, nor wane in opinions of my actions in this matter. I will however point out that regardless of what code of ethics anyone sets forth, someone will take issue and concern with.

The truth is the concept of spawn camping, sportsmanship, honor, and justification in these matters is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone who plays sees what's acceptable differently, and while we may be made and held accountable for OUR actions, those of other individuals, especially those who may feel victimized by any set of events. and individual's morale change more often than you can change underwear. How you handle it is of your own accord.

You can lay forth a framework for the general actions of an individual, but their interpretation will always differ from the intent. It?s called human nature. While ones perception of the intent is shapes their definition, a community of individuals will always have a difference of opinion, especially when its determined what?s acceptable, and when, and how, and in what way. We all play I am sure to our interpretation of the intent of the spirit of the community, and of that I am sure. Its why we are all here, play here, kill here, talk here, laugh here, and cry here.

There are too may flaws and justifications in any plan set in place. The Code of ethics any one individual lives and plays by in this game, is summarily over shadowed by the limitations and expectations any individual who plays this or any game, and even by the game itself precludes us to. I'm sorry, but I myself see serious fault with the prescribed concepts themselves set forth in the posts on this matter.

Any individual who plays this game with be exhilarated when they are on a roll, or humiliated and completely abhorred when things don't go their way. There is no prescribed doctrine on what "sportsmanship" is how should be so long as there exists the possibility of rogue elements, agendas, or even modus operandi.

I pose the following as questions that you yourselves can make your own determination on. Stop and think of EVERY possible outcome, how it affects you, your victim, your team, the opposing team. And then watch as you the individual have just made your own justifications. I reverently request that you reflect on your own answers before jumping or falling off any bandwagon, and just as I am fallible, so are you as the individual. How is it any less ethical.....

1. If I sneak into said base to steal a vehicle, and kill people as I move along either because the opportunity presented itself, I feared they would see me, they would pose a threat to my immediate escape, they have pinned down a comrade at a spawning location, etc, is it acceptable?

2. If I am defending is it even acceptable for me to attempt to steal said item?

3. If I am attacking is it even acceptable for me to attempt to steal said item?

4. The booby trap set in place itself, does it not constitute spawn camping by not allowing me to exit the base, and thereby become spawn camping itself?

5. Who is to judge how many people I kill as spawn camping to provide the opportune moment to exit "behind enemy lines"

6. How many people killed is justifiable in the pursuit of these endeavors?

7. When, in ANY of the times you've ever done said actions have you EVER left immediately, without regards for your own safety, and drove straight through without killing an individual?

8. Sitting on the back side of your lines ones the item is stolen, and camping entrances or the only movement points going forward?

9. If a sniper, from across the map, whose sole duty is to spot and kill people of the opposing faction, catches a target after he spawns, knowingly or not, and kills him, is it acceptable?

10. Is using armor when you?re in a server 8 people full or less even acceptable given the clear advantage make it any more noble a cause?

11. Yelling at people about using rock launchers, while using them myself?

12. Grabbing a medics kit from besides me, and running away in pursuit of an engagement, and not reviving the poor souls whose gear I just procured?

These are but a few questions. I don't feel the need to get all worked up and begin sprouting discourse every time it happens. anyone?s justification of why will inevitably outweigh my determination of the moral implications of their actions, and does not accept their own.

Maps, ESPECAILLY Rush types, which we seem to be running only 2 of, are notorious for lack of fixed spawn points. However, there are actually several possible spawning locations for an area, determined at random by the game itself. If I'm moving through or attempting to find a better location by which to defend or attack my objective, I, like anyone else, am going to start firing at anything that moves.

Certainly no one can discount the benefits or the purposeful intent of a flanking maneuver. Simply because someone?s position places them in-between an individual and the objective can be argued from a strategic standpoint, as "unfair practices".

To that end, an individual has the option to spawn or not spawn if their position is unfavorable. In Rush maps in general, ANY spawn location is unfavorable. I'm not going to wait for someone to walk up and shake my hand with one arm, and plant a knife with the other. Nor am I going to allow myself to become cannon fodder if it comes to that. Making a martyr of myself to prove a point or relegate discontent unto another individual because of unfavorable skill, or perceived "fairness" the opposing individual may have taken.

If a gun can fire from across the map, and a bullet can strike a target from across the map, and even if it?s my bullet dealing the killing blow, regardless of the other individuals who may be standing right on top of a spawn point, the red seen will always be directed at those which at finger can be pointed.

Forgive my terseness in this matter, but it?s one thing if an individual has a concern with something to bring it to another individuals attention, and another thing completely to perverse a topic such as this as a thinly veiled attempt at a witch hunt for ideals which anyone feels are contrary to their own. A directive such as this is tantamount to forcing a larger paradigm of reason which cannot have a solvable outcome regardless of intent to contention.

One thing failed to have been mentioned in any of the posts thus far is that there are far too many variables for any given situation, especially when provided the justifications any of us can draw with regards to a particular engagement that in the end outweigh predisposed thinking.

I highly doubt any of us walk into any situation with the sole purpose of purported spawn killing as the predetermined course of action. I take object myself to any sort personal or general attack that suggests the intent is to suppress anyone else?s willingness to play, or have a good time.

In the end, both on a personal and a team level, there are winners and losers. How you chose to approach your particular role in the endgame itself is your own distinct choice. I will continue to judge my own forgone actions, as anyone else here does, based on my own code of ethic much as anyone else here will, and will react in a manner best suited to my determination of logical thinking in the same way anyone else here will, and reach the same end conclusions based on that which I have just mentioned that any other individual will. The difference lies in that mine may be different than theirs, just as theirs will be seen differently as any other person playing with, for, by, next to, and against will.

I am sorry anyone has seen my actions themselves in a negative light, but i afford you my own justification that they were to the letter of the law, and based as closely to the Spirit of the Lair as I have applied previously. I, you, and the lair is a constantly evolving and unique place, and my own course of action is to always better myself. But, in the same token, any apology is unwarrented unlessa clear indication is presented to me that i have in someway neglected the core fundamentals of the place i have grown to love and adore. It's not to say I won't apoligize, because of that I certainly will. If you have concern with me, please feel free to bring it to my attention, and I will respond accordingly.

We may not see eye to eye on the methods or conclusion arrived to based on this. While my point will probably be lost on anyone not open to the interpretation I have laid forth, realized or not, anyone's acceptance or not of their own faults or anything I have said above has already made its point.

The opinions drawn from the above by anyone have, only asserted their individualness in the reader's eyes, as well as the author's. I leave you not with Justification for anyone?s or my own actions, but one word alone.

Perception.

Wut?

[DougBob]

This general setting up of camp at the white fixed spawn circle areas continued on phases 3 and 4 of Valpariso (2 went fast). On 3, the village at the shore, a full squad was on the roof of the one and only building behind the spawn target area, with a perfect view down of the freshly spawned. On 4 (2 huts, helipad), a squad set up at the helipad fixed spawn target. These are all examples from one map on one night but are illustrative of what I and others have observed for weeks to some degree or other.

On the roof, dude that was me!!
Holey crap, I'm reading this thinking to myself yep I hate it when I keep getting killed in my spawn by a spawn raper and then I read this quote and went Holy fracking cow that was me, was I spawn raping?.?.?.?.

Dang it I guess it looks like I was. I killed a couple behind me but was mainly protecting the charge set on the pier over the water and would walk over and check the inland objective on the hill side. After I was killed I never tried getting back up there since it was a fluke I bailed out of the chopper and landed on the roof in the first place.

I have always tried not to abuse armor or an advantage like spawn raping from a perfect spot. I have many times used a vehicle to get to the objective in a low count game but I don't attack with the armor and jump out and try to get the objective.

I profusely apologize if I upset anyone and gave the false impression of taking advantage of the situation. I had in no way intended or purposely set out to do that.

[JohnyRico]

One of my favorite aspects of the game is when I get the word that a base is lost and to fall back I immediately go to ground and try to let the attackers pass me by. Then it's knife time! When I am attacking I search out all those same places I go to ground in looking for the guys on the other team with the same idea. If I don't check my six it's my fault I get dog tagged, if they don't....

[BlackArrow]

Complicated subject since the lines get blurred at times. Overall I would say that we, as CLR's, should try to do the right thing. Everyone's definition of what that is may be slightly different, but in general try to play fair.

To me spawn camping in this game is like porn - Hard to define, but I know it when I see it. Please: If someone asks you to stop spawn killing in game, at least stop a moment and think about what you were doing. We regulars set the tone in the server for everyone else...

My own personal rule of thumb is that Attackers may kill Defenders in their base since that is where they are supposed to be. Defenders should not be in the Attackers base since they should be defending.


No matter what may be theoretically possible in a game, I would just like to remind people of the gaming environment we are trying to create here and what we expect of our regulars.



Cain's Rules

Welcome to Cain's Lair !!

I'm glad you are having fun here, glad you dropped by our Forums, and glad you have an interest in becoming a member of our Community.

Cain's Lair is a gaming Community, a collection of people who love games, and hate the BS normally associated with on-line gaming (things like excessive profanity, racial insults, sexual harassment, asshatting, and having to put up with people who act like jerks, simply to annoy others).

Cain's Lair Regulars {CLR}s value sportsmanship, civility, and enjoy good teamwork. They love playing here, making new friends here, supporting the server and its ideals, and they always treat others with respect - even when they do not deserve it.

If you agree with all the above, and want to join and be a loyal supporter of our Community - of like-minded people - attach and wear the {CLR} tag with pride and set a good example for others in the server by:

1) Becoming our friend, and a frequent positive poster in our Forums, and hopefully a monthly financial contributor to help keep our servers on-line

2) Not accusing others of cheating, or whining with your suspicions that others are cheating - primarily because they killed YOU. If you strongly suspect someone of cheating, jot down their information, collect a screenshot, and PM me or one of the Game Admins in these Forums.

3) Being helpful to others (particularly new players), you were new once too. Take the time in-game to answer basic questions others may ask; "How do I use VOIP?", "How do I type chat to only my teammates?", etc.

4) Displaying good sportsmanship (Say gs, and gg, etc), and being positive when dealing with other players, even if they are doing something that annoys you

5) Treating other players with respect (No profanity, racial slurs, ethnic slurs, gender bashing, or harassment of any type). Not calling players n00bs or other derogatory names of any sort

6) Not participating in lame gameplay or tactics, and keeping a team oriented focus

7) Using VOIP in a positive fashion to help your teammates win the game, not spamming VOIP up with annoying non-game related chatter, and/or whining about maps, gameplay modes, spamming, etc.

8 ) Do not attempt to enforce our server rules, or act as if you are a Game Admin. If someone is using profanity or being a jerk, you can certainly ask them nicely to stop, because it offends you, but do not ask them to stop because "this server does not allow cursing", and do not put yourself in the position of warning people who you believe are breaking our rules, or threatening them with being kicked or banned *for breaking our rules). Acting as if you run the server will usually lead to back and forth bickering and often cursing, and it only makes the situation worse. Best to simply note the player, and make a post in our "Report a Jerk" section then we will take it from there.

Note: The {CLR} tag, to be displayed properly, tag uses squiggly brackets {}.

Remember this, if you decide to become a CLR then you are expected to set a good, positive example by your actions and gameplay, and work to make the game fun for others.

Be aware that players who are new to the server will think you are an Admin (because you wear the {CLR} tag like all our Admins do) - but few CLRs around here actually are Game Admins and none of our Admins bully or threaten any other players.

You are welcome, and encouraged, and encouraged, to post in the "Report a Jerk" Section if someone is seriously spoiling your fun, or you may always PM a Game Admin, or me.

Acting like a jerk (asshat) can and will get any {CLR} removed from these servers, just like anyone else, in fact, probably removed more quickly because you are expected to set the best possible example for other players here, and as mentioned many people will assume you are an Admin.

Since you now have a responsibility to positively support and promote our server, {CLR}s who are caught asshatting, or breaking any server rules will subject to permanent ban, and removal from the server and these Forums, as quickly as anyone else, possibly quicker. If I see or hear CLRs using profanity, or creating a hostile environment in our servers, I will ban them from the Forums and the server.

Remember the score of a round is quickly forgotten, but the actions of others are remembered for a very, very long time.

Keep it light, and keep it fun for yourself and for others !!

"Welcome to Cain's Lair where we say;
"You'll come for the Games, but you'll stay for the people."

- Cain


Note: These Basic CLR Guidelines have remained essentially unchanged for many years.

[BlackArrow]

For those that are new to gaming or Cain's Lair....

Spawn camping is included in asshatting

[bobytt]

LOL ....

Crying about spawn camping - loosers/bad player?


I really dont get it. Just kill whoever is there and thats it. Its a war game.
Why dont just add a rule, is somebody is tired on the large map, the enemy have to bring him a vehicle so he can each the M-com/flag and his finger doesn't get tired of pressing "W"

[p0002q]

LOL ....

Crying about spawn camping - loosers/bad player?


I really dont get it. Just kill whoever is there and thats it. Its a war game.
Why dont just add a rule, is somebody is tired on the large map, the enemy have to bring him a vehicle so he can each the M-com/flag and his finger doesn't get tired of pressing "W"

You really seem to be missing the point here kid.

They don't care about K\D ratios, they care about having fun playing, keeping their servers a good experience for everyone, trying to work as a team, and always meeting new people.

Let's face the facts... each server can setup their own rules.. i have seen servers with "No Bunny Hopping"... i thought it was the stupidest thing ever, but I am in THEIR SERVER that THEY PAY FOR and I AM GOING TO RESPECT THEIR RULES AND DECISIONS WHILE I'M THERE. But this isn't even a rules scenario, it is simply someone asking for people to make the game more enjoyable and the server more appealing to the general public, and all though you may not agree with it (like me @ times), I can atleast step out of my own thinking box and realize that what Rand has asked people to do will in fact make the server more enjoyable and people will spread the word they found a decent server to play on.

This post wasn't even started on any "rules"... it was simply a CLR player asking for the other CLR players to take the spawn camping issue into consideration. Spawn Camping may be part of the game, but if the general population of players is stuck in their spawn base after base unable to do anything but die and wait... they are going to leave the server.. the end.. you cannot argue against that.... and they don't really want people thinking that the CLR server is full of spawn camping and wouln't think twice to come back or hit up the forums.

Once again, all CLR is after is having a more enjoyable game play experience and you seem to overlook that and resort to name calling and degrading people? kid grow up.